"Opportunity and chances. That's what we're here for. We're here to remove obstacles; we're here to provide opportunities. I can't force a kid to learn — but I can create an environment where it's a very positive atmosphere for them to learn."
Dr. Ken DeFrank is more than an educator, he's an advocate for students.
Dr. DeFrank, Principal of Success Academy, joins The GIPS Cast to share his philosophy of education and why alternative learning programs are vital to any public school system. He shares his experiences of more than 20 years in public education dedicated to building systems and leanring environments for students in need. He also unpacks his passion for personalized learning, the rise of student anxiety, the power of compassion, and playing the long game for building relationships with every student.
Because it's all about planting seeds and fostering healthy learning environments.
* TRIGGER WARNING *
The conversation you’ll hear on this episode touches briefly on a few topics that may be triggering for some listeners. This episode contains conversation on things such as anxiety, suicide, psychosis, emotional trauma, and seeking support for those struggles.
Please know it is our intention to discuss these topics with sensitivity and empathy. We at GIPS want to do our part to normalize empathetic conversations around mental health and wellness.
#WeAreGIPS
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Mitchell Roush 00:00
Hello, listeners. Mitch Roush, here I am the Communications Director for the district and also the host of the GIPS cast. Before we get into today's episode, I wanted to share a gentle content and trigger warning with you. The conversation you'll hear on this episode touches briefly on a few topics that might be triggering for some listeners. This episode contains conversation on things such as anxiety, suicide, ideation, psychosis, emotional trauma and seeking support for those struggles. Please know it is our intention to discuss these topics with sensitivity and empathy. We at GIPS want to do our part to normalize empathetic conversations around mental health and wellness. With that being said, it's possible that this episode might be unintentionally triggering for some so please move forward in listening with that in mind, or know that you're welcome to skip this episode for the sake of self care. So again, we issue a gentle content warning on this episode, and now we'll roll into the conversation. Thank you. Welcome back to the GIPS Cast! A podcast exploring the voices of Grand Island Public Schools in Nebraska. I'm your host, Mitchell Roush, Communications Director here at GIPS, and as always, I am excited to bring to you stories from all corners of one of Nebraska's largest, most diverse school districts, because here we're driven by our mission of every student every day a success. We're always glad you're here now. I am particularly excited about this episode and this conversation you're about to hear. I finally got one of my favorite individuals from GIPS to say yes to having a conversation on the mic. Dr Ken DeFrank, he is the principal at the Success Academy here at gi PS. Success Academy is one of the alternative learning programs that we have specialized to provide secondary education services to students who maybe need a smaller learning environment or some extra intervention and support to get what they need. It's really an incredible program, and as you can you'll be able to hear throughout the conversation, Dr DeFrank is a passionate educator with a lot of ideas and a true heart for supporting students. So I'm glad that we got him on the mic to share his philosophy of education. So why don't we dive into the conversation? I am super excited to be here with Dr Ken DeFrank, the principal of Success Academy here at Grand Island Public Schools. So thank you for being here. Dr DeFrank!
Dr. Ken DeFrank 02:56
Thank you, Mr. Roush. I really appreciate it, and I'm happy to be here.
Mitchell Roush 02:59
Absolutely. So for our listeners, I just give you a little bit of background. Dr Defra Frank is always generous with his time, and in the few years I've been with the district, every once in a while I'll pop in his office and we'll just sit down and we'll chat, and I was like, what if we turn on the microphone one of our conversations about education? So that's what we're doing. So thank you. All right. All right. So Dr DeFrank, first and foremost, why don't you just tell me a little bit about yourself. How long have you been in the district, and how did you end up in Grand islands? You're not from here?
Dr. Ken DeFrank 03:27
No, no. So I have a long grew up in California. Did not do well in school. Had some buddies that did not do well in school. Went to tried college for you know, in the in the 80s, my first time in California, met my wife in Lake Tahoe. We moved to Oklahoma. I got into education, got my master's degree there, and then my wife got offered a job at UNO, and that's how I got to Nebraska wild. And so I worked for Omaha Public Schools at Blackburn alternative school for six years, and then this job came open 12 years ago, and I came in here and Dr winter and Dr Dexter, I guess they took a chance and gave me the game, gave me a shot at it, and I haven't left. So they gave you, they gave you to the keys, the Success Academy.
Mitchell Roush 04:16
So here we are. That's it, 12 years that adds up quickly.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 04:20
It really does. And it's actually the longest place I've ever worked in my life. Wow. Okay, so
Mitchell Roush 04:24
I didn't know that. See, like, I'm learning something here.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 04:26
Five, six years. I'm usually like, Okay, I'm out, Yep, I've had enough, and I'm going somewhere else, but you're still here, but I'm still here, so
Mitchell Roush 04:32
Why are you still here?
Dr. Ken DeFrank 04:33
I love this program, and I love working with the kids. I love working with our staff. The district, I think is very progressive, and probably does not get enough credit for that interesting. And so that was one of the things that first attracted me out here, is how they had different programs for different kids, and I'm a very firm believer in that. So it's not a one size fit all. I'm not a I'm not a big fan of the my high school and Cal. Morning was 3500 kids. You know, we would have 4045, kids in a classroom. It's huge. Yeah, yeah, no wonder the teachers didn't like me. So, yeah, that's, that was kind of how. That's why I really like being here.
Mitchell Roush 05:12
Absolutely and and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to have this conversation. We're going to get into your philosophy of education and small spaces here in a little bit. That's, that's really why I wanted to put you on the mic. But before we do that, let's, let's educate our listeners a little bit. We've got a lot of listeners that are from the community, and a lot of listeners that are families, and some that are staff even. So would you be willing to just give me a crash course? What is the Grand Island Public Schools? Success Academy? And how do you operate?
Dr. Ken DeFrank 05:38
We are the Ellis Island of Grand Island Public Schools. Okay? So we welcome it all, and so you do not have to be on an IEP or a specialized you know, in special education, the main thing that we do is we deal with a lot of kids with anxiety issues. What we're finding out more and more in this generation is there's a lot of kids that don't like large crowds. Yeah, you know Fair, which is totally fair. They don't like large crowds. It's just the way it is. And so having smaller program is a benefit. So, you know, we see kids that were missing a bunch at the high school, because that is the largest high school in the state of Nebraska. It's huge. That's actually the largest high school in between. If you drew a box from Minneapolis to Kansas City, over to Denver. We are the largest high school in that area.
Mitchell Roush 06:26
Yeah, I knew we were up in there, right like, Omaha Central is huge. And then we're, like, right up there,
Dr. Ken DeFrank 06:31
So yeah, Omaha central US. And then usually Miller north are. They're all kind of buying so they're, they're big schools, and so it's a lot for kids with anxiety issues. The other thing that we deal with is suicide ideation, so we deal with a lot of that. And that is, you know, people say, Oh, it's more and more prevalent. I don't know if it's more and more prevalent. We're better at addressing it than we were, you know, 40-50 years ago.
Mitchell Roush 06:58
It's, it's more on the forefront of people's minds Exactly,
Dr. Ken DeFrank 07:00
Yeah. And we take it very, very seriously. And so we deal with that. We deal with some pretty serious mental health issues, we deal with some pretty serious medical issues, which will cause kids to miss chunks of time, yeah. And so we are all we're we call it self paced curriculum, so every kid has different daily goals and stuff like that. But if they miss two weeks, you know, because they're in the hospital, they can pick up exactly where they left off, yeah, and they can move pretty fast. So it's very beneficial for those kids. Then we deal with some kids that are just very apathetic. They just don't like school. So we always tell them, Well, this was designed. This program really was designed by people who didn't like school. So we do, you know, a lot of fun stuff, and we try to get the kids engaged. So we really focus on relationships. Yeah, because when a kid is in serious crisis, we want them to feel comfortable, to come into one of our staff members and saying, Hey, I need some help. Yes. And we have seen it time and time again, and that's why, you know some like you guys are a little loose with the rules. Well, it's because we focus on the relationship first.
Mitchell Roush 08:07
Every in every student has got to have a trusted adult and and if you can do that here in this space, then you're doing the job Exactly.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 08:16
And so like our staff, like the the I'm the only one that does a discipline we don't ever have the social workers do it, the counselor do it, the teachers do it.
Mitchell Roush 08:24
Sounds like that's by design.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 08:25
It is by design. I'm the bad cop. They're the good cop. So when those kids are feeling frustrated, when they're feeling down and low or a lot of heavy stuff of life coming at them, they have a place to go. And if once you start putting teachers and social workers and counselors into that disciplinarian, you lose that effect Absolutely, because they're not going to trust you. So now, will kids come to me and like, Hey, this is what's going on. No, but that's not my role. Yeah, my role is to be, I got to be the author here. So that has worked really, really well for us.
Mitchell Roush 08:58
I know last year I had the opportunity to interview Dawn Deuel-Rutt for a video project that we were doing, and she works here with your team, and you know, I just asked her, point blank. I was like, Why do you do what you do? And she looked at me, and she said, I want to be here to remind students that you are not the person you were on your worst day, and you can, you can, you can be better tomorrow, and we are here for you. That's it.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 09:21
We take kids where they're at and you can't judge them. I mean, there was plenty of people that judged me when I was in high school. Yeah, there's, there are educators rolling over in their grain like, Oh my God, how did that guy ever become a principal? So, yeah, you can't. You know, there's a we went, took some kids to the Malcolm X museum last year in Omaha, and that was one of the themes they really drove home. Because, you know, Malcolm X, he struggled in school, he struggled in school. He got in a little bit of trouble, but then he turned it around. People like, well, he's against the government. No, he was, he was for fairness. He was for equity. And so that really made me feel good about what we do here. Because I'm saying. Oh, there's other people have been doing this throughout the history and so, and we're just following that footsteps.
Mitchell Roush 10:05
And there's a common through line throughout the district, but I think it's amplified here intentionally. You talk about connecting with students with anxiety issues or medical issues. You've got students coming to you with the litany of hurdles. What I'm hearing is you're striving to give students what they need when they need it exactly. And we say that in every pocket of the district, as we should, but I feel like here in success academy that that is a very amplified focus on your education model.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 10:33
It is manageable because of the way we have the number of kids in our building. So talk to me about that. So we are very adamant about And, matter of fact, there are some educators in the district that saw this argument between me and Dr Dexter, who I absolutely love, yep. But when my first year here there was, there was a heated, heated debate, spirited debate about the number of students, and so I got them to commit to a number, and that was, it was a very good number. It was like, Okay, this rate. I actually wanted it lower, but it was very workable what they gave us. So we basically have a one to 12 ratio at the high school level. And we do that for, you know, people say, well, that's not a lot of kids. Well, yeah, it's designed that way because we want to spend that one on one time with kids. And so when we do those things, that's builds the relationships and the trust. And my first year here, 12 years ago, there were 88 kids that came through the program at the high school in one year, in one year. Last year, there were 200 and like 22 and 30 kids that came through. And so, but at a time, there's only so many kids in the building at it.
Mitchell Roush 11:41
Right. So, that that 200 something is over the course of a year. And so students will come in, get what they need and transition on, and then another student will come in.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 11:49
We'll have kids that will come in and graduate early. We'll have kids that will finish their all their academics with us, and then still all they have left is CPI go into automotives or manufacturing construction that happens a lot, or they'll have most of their stuff done, like we have kids that take classes here and classes at Gish, the ones that they take at classes at GIS, those are their very high interest class. So they do, they do pretty they usually tend to do pretty well, like a fine arts class. Or fine arts is a huge thing, band music, those things, those types of things, robotics is another one. Oh, for sure, yeah, that's been, that's been a great candidate. Has been getting that thing booming, yeah, we got into me, me and Kim. It's we, we did a little project one time, and we kind of, yeah, we think a lot. So so we do these things. And we so we only have, in the morning, we only have we have a morning session and an afternoon session. And the morning we have 36 kids with three teachers. Afternoon, we have 36 kids with three teachers. Then we also have what's called Oasis. And Oasis is where they work from home, yep. And I have a teacher that deals that. We have 28 kids in that, in that one and so, and we've fluctuated the number back and forth. And 28 keeps Miss Luth pretty busy. And because I have 1000s and 1000s of emails, because that's how we do all the all the communications back and forth. And so it's designed that way. But then what some people don't understand is like, Oh, well, you only have that, you know, you know, 72 kids. Yeah, that's at one time, yeah. But we're continuously going, you know, revolving kids.
Mitchell Roush 13:15
So that's a very important thing to learn about the like, you know, for again, for for me, our listeners learning about this program like, you've got 200 something, probably 250 kids this year that are going to come through your doors and get support.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 13:28
And they have some people ask me, like, how do you you know? Because once you mention alternative Ed, yeah, what you usually get is, Oh, those are the bad kids, right? No, they're not bad kids at all. These kids are really kind of heroes to us, because when you get to know them, and you get to know their personal stories and all the obstacles that they have to overcome just to get to school, yep, it's, it's pretty inspiring, it is, and that's what keeps us going,
Mitchell Roush 13:55
They're still showing up, yeah? Like, that's, that's the thing, right? Like, school can be hard for a lot of students, but if you're still showing up, you can, you can start there.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 14:05
Yeah. And one of the nice things that, you know, this crew has been together for 12 years. The main we've had some other, you know, teachers here that have retired, and then we, you know, hired some new ones, but the core people have always stayed, and we've been been doing it long enough now that when we run into students, you know, they're thanking us, wow. And they're like, hey, you know, you know what about Miss G, or, you know, Dawn, or, you know, one of the T, it's like they remember it. And now, when you're going through it at the time, you don't think these kids are listening to one thing that you're saying. It's like going in one ear and out the other, yep. And this goes, I don't know if we can talk about philosophy, but one of the things that a guy named John Anderson, he was a custodian here, and then he worked for the city of Grand Island. He used to do videotaping for the football gaming great guy, Grand Island guy. And one time is about, I was working on my dissertation. It was not. Eight o'clock at night, and he was kind of finishing up, and I had my head down. I was like, oh, you know, had one of those days where just got your butt kicked. And, yeah, I was like, Man, why am I doing this? And then I go the bathroom, I come back, and I'm going back to my office, work on my dissertation, and he goes planting seeds. I didn't think anything of it, so I just sat down, and in about 15 minutes, I'm like, What are you talking about? Plant seeds. He goes, can you expect to see the results of all the things you guys are doing? Because you're, you're not going to see those results. You're planting seeds. Other people are going to get the benefit of that. Yep. I'm like, Oh, that's a life. That's one of the you know, they always have those in education. We always have these, all these phrases, aha moments, right? That was an aha moment for me. And I was like, Okay, I understand. And then so with that one and the ultimate compassion and compassion, so we had one young gal that was not going to school. And I remember going up to Omaha and talking to one of my mentors, and and me and my wife went out to lunch with her, and I was like, Hey, I'm really struggling with this kid, so we can do just give up. And she hammered me for about 20 to 30 minutes. And my wife is just laughing, having a great time, and I'm just, I feel like, you know, an inch high. And that's when I came back and I talked to dawn. I said, Okay, for the next six weeks, I want you to go buy the house. She goes six weeks. I said, Yep, every day of six weeks, whether they whether they come out or not, whether they come out or not. It took us four weeks, and then we wore down, and the kid ended up graduating. Incredible. And that's when I really bought into this compassion thing. And that was about our second year when I was here. So I was about 10 years ago, and that really changed our philosophy, and we really started changing the way we do things, and the way we don't make a lot of rules. You know, our major rules are be nice and communicate. You know, there's some other stuff --
Mitchell Roush 16:57
Which I think is also, you know, like just helpful for a living.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 17:01
Just be nice and communicate. Usually it works out for you. Yep, yeah. So those two things are probably my biggest philosophies, that, you know, that plant in the seed, and that ultimate capacity and remembering that, you know, hey, can you because, you know, I am wired to be a jerk. Okay, I'm into Frank. That's how we are. We use other words. We have this thing called the cranky to Frankies. You know, there's a whole...
Mitchell Roush 17:26
I hope you have t shirts.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 17:28
Don't tell my sister in laws. I'll probably do because I have four older brothers, and they call us. We're all the same, yeah, you know, my dad and his brothers, and so the whole family of the Franks are, you know, we can be kind of jerks. And so I always work really hard on, you know, I got to meet that kid where he's at. I can't judge the kid, which goes into another thing where an educator is like, Oh, I don't want to teach this because it's against my personal beliefs. I have a problem with them. Yeah, I see things every day that I don't personally believe in. But my job is not to judge them. My job as a public school educator, I got to take that kid where he's at, yep, and work with and get that kid ready. Yeah, and it doesn't matter whether I agree with their political stance or any other kind of thing. You know? It doesn't matter. I have to work with that kid. I am a public school educator, and so that has really helped me, that philosophy, that kind of mindset, has really helped me change from being a jerk to hopefully being a little more compassionate. Now the kids will still tell you that. I mean, let you know right now.
Mitchell Roush 18:28
Well yeah, someone has to, yeah, right.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 18:30
Somebody's got to be the bad cop. So that's me, and,
Mitchell Roush 18:33
Man, there's, there's a lot, there's a lot of goodness there. And so I want, I want to zero in for a second then on the experience that the student has, right? So you're talking about compassion. You're talking about meeting them where they're at and trying to get them to understand that showing up matters, and wanting to get them to finish. But there's, there's a difference between doing the work for them and giving them a system or an environment where they can thrive and be self sufficient. You want to talk about that a little bit because you're you're not just pushing students. Pushing students through. They've got to get work done, but it's, it's a different environment designed to help them thrive.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 19:08
And we do a lot of outside stuff. So we do a lot of one on one, lot of outside you know, like today, they took a bunch of kids fishing. People like, Oh, you guys go fishing. Let me tell you, fishing is great for the soul. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that we try to do is provide opportunities for kids that when they get older or they're not doing, you know, staying inside, playing the video game all day long, doing drugs, you know, those kind of giving them healthy outlets, okay, trying to get that mindset of exploration in their head, yeah, like, Hey, It's okay to try things. Because, you know, with kids, kids don't, especially teenagers, most of them do not put themselves out there in a public way. They want to. They want to blend in with the crowd, not be, you know, we will do what they're already confident. Yeah, yep. And so trying to challenge them to do different things. You know, we've done archery before. We've done all sorts of little different things through the. Years, and we always kind of change it up, because if you do the same thing every year, it gets kind of boring, not only for the staff, but the kids get kind of bored with it. Yeah. So we're always trying to change things up, but trying to get kids to realize that one that, hey, school's okay, it's not bad. And we've lost a we've lost generations of kids and families, I think, with education from the 70s and 80s on how we ran schools and they had, they had no confidence. So they their parents and their grandparents, their great grandparents, they hated school. So when they get home, that's all they hear, is negativity. So one of the things we wanted to do was try to break that cycle. School should be a little fun. Yeah, you know, there's a big push about, you know, bringing the recesses back and more recess and play time. I'm a big fan of that. I think we should do that.
Mitchell Roush 20:42
I am, I am pro recess.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 20:44
Yeah, definitely pro recess. I think we do. We need to get back to the basics in elementary and actually in all of education. So trying to get kids to do different things, trying to get kids to think about what they want to do. And one of the things that we try to encourage, which we have not been very successful at, and I've been struggling with this for 12 years, my goal is to get kids to come to me and say, Hey, Dr, Frank, we want to go do this. Yep, and have it their idea, their idea, and get and they're excited about it already, exactly. So we keep pushing that, but it hasn't really, you know, I've done it for 12 years, sometimes I get some successes, but most kids are just, they just don't want to, they don't put themselves out there. So then we try to get them out in public and try to be, you know. And one of the things that we put in this year was Jag, the jobs for America. And so that with the career exploration, this is so jag is jobs for American graduates. Is United Way program. And they do. They're trying to get kids to do not only career awareness and career exploration, but like they just got done doing their vision board, and they had to present it in front of others. That's, that's, that's most kids Big Deal traditional school don't like doing it, and at all turn school, the anxiety and mental health, they really don't like doing it. And so that was one of the thing that we were really excited about adding to our program, because that's one thing that we really needed, was kids to get more self confidence. Yes, I guess that's what I'm after. Kids got to build some self confidence in themselves, yeah.
Mitchell Roush 22:11
And part of getting that confidence is rising up to challenges, and they're sustainable and attainable challenges, but you got to do it.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 22:20
Yeah, yeah. And so on the academic side, we have what's called an academic we have an incentive plan, then the parents have to sign off on it, and it's tied to being on time to school and and having at least 80% overall attendance. But they have a daily goal, and if they get their goal done, they don't have to stay the full three hours. We don't force them to stay. And what that has done is gotten kids that are just want to get out of school, like I got a plan, I got a job, I just want to graduate and go. They're motivated. They're motivated. They come in, they just do the things. One of the things when we were a full day program is we, most of our discipline issues were kids watching video games. And it wasn't just watching video games, they were watching other people play video games. Yeah, like the Twitch stuff. And so I went to one kid and said, Hey, listen, what are you doing? He goes, Well, I'm watching these guys play a video game. I said, What? And the kid looked up me. He goes, dr, Frank, you watch football? I said, Yeah, do you play football now? I said, No, oh, it's just a different it's just a different sport, you know? It's a different it's a different thing to do. So that goes back to meeting the kid where they're at and kind of learning from them, too. So
GIPS COMMERCIAL 23:31
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Mitchell Roush 24:08
The intentionality behind the size of your program. You anybody listening to this that you for five minutes knows how you feel, but like I the mics on now's your chance Tell me. Why do you believe so strongly for and especially in alternative learning programs. Why does size or the smallness of the environment matter?
Dr. Ken DeFrank 24:28
Relationships, relationships, relationships. Yeah, a high school teacher, you know, has 120 kids and, you know, and I'm an administrator and I'm we're our own worst enemy. You got to build relationships, all right. I got to build relationships 120 kids. I don't see them all the time, you know, so it's very hard, yeah? So I think that's why those after school programs are very important, all the extracurricular stuff, because that's really where those relationships in the traditional schools will go, yeah? So at ours, we keep it small so we can build those relationships. Try to find out what the kid is into. Do, and then tailor it individualized to them. We've had kids that, you know, they wanted those like, I want to be a doctor. Okay? Then we go like, this is what you gotta do to be a doctor. I don't know if I want to be a doctor. So we're very on and that's one thing. We're very truthful with kids. We don't lie. We don't, we don't, we don't make stuff up on them. We're really, we're very honest with them, and we try to get them individualized as much as possible. And that size is what matters. And so what always kind of amazes me, especially in traditional schools, the politicians are, you know, which we go off on a rail on here?
Mitchell Roush 25:39
I don't know if the world's ready for the politics rant.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 25:42
The politicians, you know, when they're saying, like, you know, you can't kick a kid out of school, you got to keep them in school. You got to do that. Okay, if a kid is going into a traditional building and they're constantly getting into trouble, Logic tells you that that setting is probably not appropriate for that kid. Yeah. And so one of the things I really love about our district is we do, we don't, and we don't have enough. We need more, but we have more than most districts, yeah, and so that's why I really believe in that small programs, because there are a lot of kids at Gish that would not do well in a small program. They like that traditional, yeah, education experience and in high school and a public school, but there are kids that don't. So when you talk about behavior issues and stuff like that, all those kids are having those big behavior issues, and why are we continuing to keep forcing him into the same thing? You know that that square peg into a round hole? Yeah, it's like, that's why these programs are good. Now, does every kid that comes here do? Well, no, you know, kids lose their spot here for different reasons. So you have to have those different types of programs tailored to the needs of your individual community. So just because that this works here in Grand Island, yeah, doesn't mean I could just go replicate and do exactly the same thing somewhere else. It works because we tailored this to our community and what our kids needed, yeah, that's, that's the vision we went with. And so I think in most schools districts around the nation, that's what they try to do with their alternative programs. You have to tailor to what your kids need, you know? So, like, one of the things that we did was, when I got here 12 years ago, we offered door to door transportation. Yeah, you know, our middle school program has a bus that comes there. We have a couple cars. Now, one of the things we found out, because you gotta, you learn by trial by area. So we were like a basically the last two years. We were basically an Uber Yeah. We spent a lot running around, yeah? So now what we did was we said, okay, let's make the adjustment. We'll get you to school, but you got to get home on your own. Yeah, so that, and that's really freed us up. And the reason we did that because we were tracking the data. We were tracking like, okay, we're doing the last two years. We're doing less and less, I call it fun stuff, but less activities with kids, and that's what really grabs the kids. And so we had to get back to that. And now we're now, we're starting to see that now, after we've moved over buildings, and so we're getting back on track. And you can tell through the staff too, because little more smiles on their face. Yeah, kids are having fun, so we're trying to do more of those things.
Mitchell Roush 28:16
And so going into that, right? You talked a little bit about the fishing, but you've done, I mean, y'all are super creative in terms of trying to, trying to get the kids out there and try something new. So you've done stuff with the Stolley Park garden. You do equine therapy. You've done, you've done, did you do, did you canoeing with westerbee last year, something like that.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 28:36
We go. So the past. So how it started, so how this all began. My first year here, I wanted to my old school that I came, you know, when I was in Oklahoma, I should say I did eight field trips a year. I did four academic and four fun ones. And so when I got to Grand Island and I was running the program, I'm like, we got to get back to having, you know, some fun ones. Teachers didn't want to do it. So we loaded up all the kids at the end of the year, and I knew Mr. Westerby and couple other guys from Walnut, they had a bunch of kayaks. And so we loaded all the kayaks up, went to Mormon Island, cooked them lunch, had a nice lunch. Kids had a fantastic time. Yeah, and the teachers came back because teachers didn't want to do it, right? They're like, man, these kids are going to go out of control or do this. And they came back and they said, Yeah, that was pretty good. It's pretty good. I was like, Yeah. And what? They didn't realize what I knew what was going to happen. Put myself out there that the following year, our behaviors went down.
Mitchell Roush 29:37
Because now these kids are seeing there's a method there.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 29:39
There's a method to the madness. Because now these kids are seeing these teachers in a different light. And they built these relationships.
Mitchell Roush 29:44
They had a shared experience exactly that was positive, yes, yes, and not just built on, did you perform exactly?
Dr. Ken DeFrank 29:51
And it's like, you know, we just went out, we fished, we cooked, kayaked, and so we did that for four years, but that about the fourth year. It. Started getting to morning. Kids were just hanging out with it. So we quit doing it. So then we got went to Turkey Creek over in Kearney, and so we go down that river there with a little drop and stuff. And so that was, that was fantastic, yeah, so we've done that the past couple of years. We didn't get to do it this year because we moved, but it's fun. So, like, the kids were out at Mormon Island and middle school today, they're out the middle. You know, these kids, a lot of these kids have never kayaked, no, and so they're out there for the first time experiencing something new. And that's part of the magic of the program, I think, is like, we want to offer experiences that kids have never done before, and we tell them, if you don't want to, just try it one time, if you don't want to, we go again, like if we go kayaking again, which we will. And there was a kid today that didn't want to go. Next time they don't have to go. We're not gonna force them to do it. We just want you to try. Yeah, and we're trying to get that mindset it's okay to try different things, because you don't know when it's gonna what's the actual event or activity that's gonna sink into your head that's gonna get you going, right?
Mitchell Roush 30:57
Such a good word. I want to talk a little big picture with you here in terms of how long have you been in education,. Dr. DeFrank?
Dr. Ken DeFrank 31:03
Like 24 or 25- ish.
Mitchell Roush 31:05
You've been around the block. I've been around the block. Yeah. Okay, so you've seen a lot. All right, okay, so let, let's talk big picture here. We talked a little bit about your your philosophy of education. We talked about why small programs are key, especially in alternative education and shared experiences with students. What is the biggest opportunity you see in education in the next three to five years?
Dr. Ken DeFrank 31:30
Wow, the biggest opportunity i i think the mindset of education is really wrapping itself around that relationship building with kids. Yeah, this generation, you know, there were, so there was a study done, I think, in, I don't know how long ago, but basically, kids that were born in 2010 and on, or the turn, maybe they turned 13 or 14, 2010 because that's really when the smartphones came out and all that good. Yeah, those kids brains are changing Absolutely. I don't know if you ever watch reels or little tick tock videos, but by God, I can watch a video, and the next thing I know, it's an hour later. Yep, I'm like, What did I just do? You know? And so I'm really working so really working on not getting sucked down the rabbit hole, as we call. We call it, and so. But so kids, kids learn differently, and so we have to adjust to that. And I think, I think educators are adjusting to that. And I think the more that we do with relationships, career act, you know, I love the fact that we the pendulum is finally swinging back to and it has in Grand Island for a while, but nationally, going back to career and college ready, absolutely not every kid needs to go to college, but public college, public education, college should be affordable to any kid. Preach doesn't mean that they have to go. Yeah, I don't know if you ever played a plumber's bill or electricians bill, they make pretty good money, they're doing fine, all right, and so getting those kids into those trades, I love that idea that we're doing this. And I love the idea that, you know, for five years we did the CPI, some of the stuff was working. So there were some great programs, you know, like the lost the word now, the aeronautic ones, with the flying the simulation, oh, yeah, like, flight simulator, yeah, and the flight now, and all that, and building an airplane and stuff like that. Okay, it didn't quite work for us, but we were the district was like, Okay, it's not working for us. We need, we need to switch gears, yeah, maybe we go back to it. You know, my philosophy on that one was like, I think that's more of a state, because just a population wise, yep, you need more people. And so I like the idea that we change that, things that we look at that's really not cost we have to and we have to worry about what's cost effective. You know, we only the pie is only so big. And so by doing those things was great, and then concentrating on the things that the things that the kids are really interested in. That's where that's, that's where the that's where we're really going to see some some payoffs. I think absolutely, because it's, it's, it's so I go back to the Career and College Readiness in the relationships, I think, more and more educators when I, when I first came in, I was always told, be a hard ass. Don't, don't play. Don't play with the rules, man, set the tone. You can always lighten up later, but if you go in light, they're gonna walk all over you. I think that's changed a little bit. I still think you have, you still have to have parameters, you still have to have boundaries. You gotta have expectations, and you have to fall and here's the thing, you have to follow through on. If you say, I'm gonna do this, then you have to do it. Yeah, yep. And I think I see more and more of the young teachers, especially, and even the older ones that are that they're really concentrating. They want to build relationships with kids, yeah, you know, because that's, that's where it's at. That's you can't force a kid to learn, no? But if you create. In an environment where they're comfortable and they feel safe, they're gonna learn, and that's the difference, I think, that we've kind of grasped that it's like we have to make these environments safe for them, and we need opportunities for kids.
Mitchell Roush 35:14
You talk about that safety, the relationships and everything i You mentioned anxiety before. I don't think that's a secret to anybody listening to this podcast, that anxiety is a number one struggle for students right now, but particularly for for you in the Success program, you have a lot of students that are coming to you wounded, and that compassion piece so huge for you. See a lot of stuff, yeah, and, and I'm assuming that relationship piece is also key to helping them feeling safe here as they go through some of that. Yes, they're unpacking trauma. When they come to you, you're seeing a lot. Is that what you I guess, following up, though, what's the opportunity? Question, the big challenge that's in front of you is, is the anxiety, the trauma. What do you see?
Dr. Ken DeFrank 36:03
No, not the anxiety. We were pretty adept at handling some of the things that we have seen in the past that's pretty serious, like psychosis. You know, when they talk about schizophrenia and stuff like that, the really heavy stuff, you know, that's usually not diagnosed until they're in their late teens, early 20s. We're seeing younger and younger kids go through that kind of stuff, and there's really no diagnosis for it, yeah. And so one of the things that we did last year is we really dived into psychosis and learn the basics we're we're not the experts, no, but I have to be comfortable enough to and our staff is comfortable enough they can identify it, see the warning signs, and then we know where to send those kids for the experts. We're not here to that's, that's kind of what we do. And so that psychosis thing was huge, and I think we're seeing more of that, you know. And I know some of the older people, because I am older brothers, and then anxiety. Look what these kids go through.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 37:03
Yeah, just on TV. I mean, the violence. Look at our political leaders. I mean, they act like three year olds. Yeah, on both sides of the aisle. By the way, I'm not, I don't want to go one side of the all. I group them all together. You know, one of the things that we saw was the school shootings. Every school saw it when all that stuff was going on that affected every that affected kids in every building. You can talk to any principal in this district or any other district that they had kids and not coming to school because they were afraid that their school was going to get shot up, even though there was no evidence that there was anything going on. But all of that stuff takes effect on kids. It does, you know. And so we, we got it, we get, you know, and we're not a prison. We want to be a prison. I always say, you know, the police, at least they got guns and badges. You know what? Educators have relationships. That's our biggest that's our biggest defense. That's our biggest weapon against those school shootings. And that is a kid being comfortable enough to go into a staff member and say, Hey, man, something ain't right. Yeah, this. You guys gotta check on this kid, and then the staff has to follow up and actually do it. That's our that's our best defense for through school shootings. It's not a metal detector. It's not those are all fine. It's great, you know. And having those protocols is, you know, important, and we do it. But it comes down to that relationship. That's where you're going to stop.
Mitchell Roush 38:24
Absolutely, yeah. Did that student have a relationship with an adult? Did they feel like they belonged? Did they feel safe when they were here?
Dr. Ken DeFrank 38:30
And a kid like maybe knew that that kid was struggling, and so the other kid goes, Hey, you guys need check on this kid. And that's happened before in schools where That's where they stopped it, yep, because other kids felt comfortable and had trust in the in the staff, that you know they were going to stop that. And so it works. It works. It's tough. Takes a long time, because it takes a long time to build a relationship. It takes me about five seconds to blow one if I'm having a bad day, yep.
Mitchell Roush 39:01
The intentionality of everything. I think back to I remember one time you and I were hanging out and you said, you said this, you're like, all we're doing is giving kids a chance, yeah, just giving kids a chance to show up and see if they'll do the work.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 39:12
Yep, opportunity and chance. That's what we're here for. We're here to remove obstacles. We're here to provide opportunities. I can't force a kid to learn. But I can, I can create an environment where it's a very positive atmosphere for them to learn. The teachers can have the the chance, especially our teachers, because they have only a, you know, it's that one to 12 ratio. They have a they have a very powerful job of connecting with those kids, because they have the time. And I think that's what's not fair in traditional Ed, when, when all these people come down on teachers and traditional, hey, you take 121 40 kids, see how good you do, yeah, building relationships with everything else that. Oh, yes. And so that's, you know, people's like, oh, the magic. We're set up. We're designed that way. And. So that's why it works. Yeah, there's a lot of people before I got here that put this program together and kept the numbers down, and now we took it to another level. And I didn't, it was the staff that did, but that was the reason, because you had enough you can work with kids, you know, like when we go out on activities, you know, they're like, Oh, you can take the whole matter of fact, I had a conversation with a district leader this year, and they're like, Yeah, you could take like, 2022, kids. I said, No, we're not. I said, we take four to five. They're like, what? Yeah, I want that as to be a very intimate experience. So, so what? I so when Don duel rut takes, you know, five kids to City College. Yep, they're getting that. It's personalized. It is you put and I love that we do this at the high school, the freshmen with their all go up and all that's I love that, but it's not as personalized as when you're in a very small group. It's still fun, it's still it's still important to do, and I'm glad we're doing it, but I think by having the ability. That's why we feel so grateful, because we have the ability to really go in these small groups and meet with kids and and show them around and stuff, and do stuff like that. So you know.
Mitchell Roush 41:10
You're helping kids get the opportunity to finish that maybe wouldn't have seen that in themselves.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 41:15
We always take them out to eat.
Mitchell Roush 41:18
So to wrap up, Dr. DeFrank, I ask everybody that's on this podcast one question that's the same because I'm fascinated by the answer. So I'm gonna ask you, what is one thing about public education you want folks to know or to better understand?
Dr. Ken DeFrank 41:33
We are public education. We have to take it all. You don't get to pick and choose. We don't have that. You know, we can pick and choose who we want, and you have to meet those kids with some very significant needs there. I feel, I feel really bad about teachers that work in districts that don't have these kind of programs, yeah, because they're handling it all and they're like, and there's what you do, and like they're not kicking them out, like they don't have nowhere to go, Yeah, well, then the community itself has to, like, say, Hey, we got to get smart about this. There's an old saying, you can pay me now, you can pay me later, okay? And that's like, I can educate your kid now, or they can raise hell and get in trouble, and now we're paying for them in prison, right? It's cheaper, much more effective because, well, I tell kids when they're leaving, it's like, hey, I want you to job and pay taxes, like, what? But yeah, it's how I get my raises. Man, you're not doing me any good on welfare, but you got a job and you're paying taxes. Man, that's what I'm about. So I think say the question again?
Mitchell Roush 42:39
What's one thing about public education you wish people better understood.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 42:45
It isn't easy. It's not I mean, what we're being asked to do, and I'm saying this in a general way, not me, because I feel I'm very lucky, yeah, but what we're asking generally, what to do for educators, is quite impossible. You know, you have the political strife on both sides. You have all these people with these ideas and the new, you know, the new initiatives that always come through every year, instead of just going back to the basics, which I really think we need to do more exploration. It's like, you know, we talked about DC diplomats the other day at the calendar committee, and they're talking about and that's why we have spring break when we have it, yep, and I'm thinking, I kept I was, I'm trying to grow so I kept my mouth shut. But I'm like, Well, how come I really think that every kid should travel in middle school and then it to some national place like DC, yeah, in high school, it should be an international trip, because the more we get kids out into the world, you know, a lot of the kids that have the most serious behavior issues, they don't go travel. They're not traveling, yeah, they're not going out and experience in the world. What they see is in their block. And we need to expand that. So, yeah, see the world. So public education is we really need to change how we do a lot of the stuff. But it all comes down to finances and but it's a hard job, and it's not for everybody. And I can get my I don't know. I don't even know the correct word, but I get pretty fired up, and people start running down public education, yeah, because they you have no idea if you're not, if you're not doing it, you have no idea what the things that you have to go through. And it's that secondary trauma that we probably don't talk enough about. So one of the things that I found out for doing this for 25 years, and I didn't know I was experiencing secondary trauma, yeah, because every day I'm hearing these horrific stories exactly day in and day out for 20 years.
Mitchell Roush 44:50
How could you not carry that?
Dr. Ken DeFrank 44:53
Yeah, if you if you didn't care, I guess you could. But if you cared, which, you know we care? Yeah, we care about kids and so. So you take some of that personally, and that's what you have to work on. And so I don't think the the general public understands the trauma that the teacher every day they're listening to this stuff, every day they're seeing just horrific things, or hearing about horrific things that these kids have gone through. And it takes it takes a toll on your takes a toll on your mental health, which then affects your physical health, absolutely. And so I think we need, and we're doing a better job in education of addressing that and but I wish the public would understand it ain't easy. No, it's not easy at all.
Mitchell Roush 45:36
It takes, it takes a special person to show up and say, I'm going to take care of these kids, and I'm going to make sure they're ready for life.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 45:41
And having administrators and central office personnel having an understanding and that mindset, I got to do everything I can to alleviate pressure for the teacher so they could just concentrate on teaching, yep. And so it's, it's a, it's a whole dynamic there. And the good districts that are out there in the nation, and I think we're a good district, you know, we're doing it, yep, you know. So I'm excited about it, and I got, you know, only about four or five more years left, so I got to thinking, I gotta go do some crazy stuff this last five years.
Mitchell Roush 46:11
You're never leaving here forever, man. Thank you so much. Dr DeFrank, for everything you and your team does to be here for students. Thank you.
Dr. Ken DeFrank 46:21
Thank you. Really appreciate it absolutely.
Mitchell Roush 46:22
Thank you again to Dr. DeFrank for joining us on the GI PS cast, sharing his voice and the power of alternative education. So thank you as well, listeners for joining us on this podcast. We wouldn't be here without you if you enjoyed the G I P s cast, or if you particularly enjoyed this episode, we would love it if you gave us a rating or a review on your favorite podcast platform, Apple podcasts Spotify whatever it would help others discover us along the way. We greatly appreciate that. And of course, be sure to visit www.GIPS.org, that is the district website and your hub for all the information resources, news updates and more from Grand Island Public Schools. Thank you again for joining us, listeners, and we will be coming back at you soon with some more stories from Grand Island Public Schools.
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